Spicy Kids, Cold Feet, and a Singing Mother-in-Law with Mary Van Geffen

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“I knew I shouldn’t marry him… but I walked down the aisle anyway.”

What happens when you ignore your gut? This week, Christa sat down with parenting coach Mary Van Geffen and reacted to a jaw dropping wedding story featuring a mother-in-law who refused to take no for an answer, a husband who never set boundaries, and the red flags that were there all along.

Then, they discuss raising strong-willed “spicy” kids, breaking generational cycles, and why healing yourself is one of the greatest gifts you can give your children. From trusting your instincts to navigating judgment and parenting with intention, this episode is full of honest conversations and practical takeaways.

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Must-Hear Insights and Key Moments

• What Is a “Spicy” Child? – Mary explains the traits of strong-willed kids, why they’re often misunderstood, and how their biggest challenges can become their greatest strengths.
• Healing Yourself While Parenting – The conversation explores how parenting often brings unresolved childhood wounds to the surface—and why self-awareness changes everything.
• Becoming the Calmest Person in the Room – Mary shares practical techniques for slowing down reactions, regulating emotions, and creating connection before correction.
• Handling Judgment from Other Parents – The discussion dives into unsolicited advice, public tantrums, and how to tune out outside opinions while protecting your peace.
• The Wedding That Never Felt Right – Mary opens up about marrying someone despite knowing in her gut it wasn’t the right decision—and the lesson she learned from it.
• The Mother-in-Law Who Wouldn’t Take No – Christa and Mary react to an unbelievable story of a mother-in-law determined to perform at the wedding, no matter what the couple wanted.
• Why Your Partner Must Set Family Boundaries – The pair discuss why spouses should handle difficult conversations with their own families and what happens when they don’t.
• Breaking Generational Patterns – The episode ends with an empowering conversation about choosing healthier relationships, parenting differently, and trusting your instincts.

Words of Wisdom: Standout Quotes from This Episode

• “The biggest red flags usually show up long before you walk down the aisle.” – Christa Innis
• “Sometimes becoming a parent forces you to heal parts of yourself you didn’t even know were hurting.”  – Christa Innis
• “If your gut keeps telling you something isn’t right, don’t ignore it just because everyone else says it’s normal.”  – Christa Innis
• “The healthiest relationships are built when both people choose each other first.”  – Christa Innis
• “Parenting isn’t about being perfect—it’s about being willing to grow alongside your child.”  – Christa Innis
• “Sometimes the hardest boundary you’ll ever set is the one that finally changes your family’s future.”  – Christa Innis
• “Connect with them before you correct, before you direct.” – Mary Van Geffen
• “A lot of times when we have a strong-willed, spicy one, we kind of stop liking them. Shift your mind to: What do you like about this kid? What is good about them?” – Mary Van Geffen
• “You can’t discipline, change, or help your child grow outside of a relationship. Connection has to come first.” – Mary Van Geffen
• “If you’re like, ‘I’m not sure this is the right guy,’ then trust it.” – Mary Van Geffen
• “The son should be the one setting the boundary with his mother. He set his wife up to fail by making her be in that communication.” – Mary Van Geffen

*This conversation is for entertainment and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional advice. Please seek a licensed professional for your specific situation.

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Blog Transcript:

Note: We use AI transcription so there may be some inaccuracies

Christa Innis: Hey, guys. Thanks for joining me for another episode of Here Comes the Drama. I’m your host, Christa Innis. Today I’m joined by Mary Van Geffen. She’s an international parenting coach for moms of strong-willed kids, or as she calls them, spicy kids. Mary’s the author of Parenting a Spicy One, and helps parents learn how to stay calm, kind, and firm while raising spirited children, even on their hardest days.

She combines her training as a Simplicity Parenting counselor and professional co-active coach with her own lived experience raising both a chi- a spicy child and a more easygoing one. Through her coaching programs, d- digital courses, and social media, she’s helped thousands of moms navigate their ups and downs of parenting with more confidence and connection.

I had so much fun chatting with Mary. She shares some wedding stories of her own. We banter, we talk parenting tips, and so much more. In fact, I think a few, maybe a month ago now, um, her and I did a skit of our own, which was a lot of fun. She is just so much fun to chat with. I feel like I could talk to her forever.

So without further ado, please enjoy this episode with Mary.

Christa Innis: Hi, Mary

Mary Van Geffen: Hi, how are you, Christa?

Christa Innis: I’m good. How are you?

Mary Van Geffen: Outstanding. Leaving for New York City tomorrow morning to go see my adult child. I can’t wait to-

Christa Innis: Oh …

Mary Van Geffen: walk the streets.

Christa Innis: Fun. Oh my gosh, I love New York City. That’ll be so fun. I love that. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I’m so excited to have you.

Um, many people might know that we did a skit not too long ago. That was fun.

Mary Van Geffen: Oh, it was the, like the fun of my life. I- … that’s all I wanna do is silly character stuff, and it w- you’re the first person- Yes … that has done it with me, so thank you.

Christa Innis: I love it. Your acting debut, and the comments were just like, “Keep doing it, keep doing it.”

So you gotta do some more out there. Like I, I think it was so fun.

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah, that was fun. I wanna do part two with you.

Christa Innis: Yes. Oh my gosh, we should definitely do that. That was so fun to put together, and I think just seeing like the characters like come to life, and I hadn’t done one like that. I’d done a couple collab skits, but not one like in depth like that, so I feel like it worked really well together.

But-

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah, and it was interesting to hear that your process is not to look directly in the camera, and that a- all mine were directly to camera, and so it’s, there’s so many variations of how people, creators do it.

Christa Innis: Yes. Yes. Yeah, I’m, I’m constantly learning and trying new things out here as, I guess as we all are.

Um, but let’s, before we get into, I mean, there’s so many things I could talk to you about, but let’s talk a little bit about your- s- tell us a little bit about yourself. Um, I know you’re the, you’re the expert on strong-willed, intense, defiant kids you call spicy ones. So let’s get into what you do, and we’ll kind of go from there.

Meet the “Spicy Ones”: Understanding Strong-Willed Kids 

Mary Van Geffen: Mm. Yeah, I am the parent coach for the spicy ones. I’m a spicy one. My mother was a spicy one, and I raised a spicy one, and I, I have a, a quiz you’re welcome to take if you go to my bio, um, to find out if you’ve got one, but you kind of know when you have one. These are the kids that are inflexible, highly emotional, um, treat adults kind of like equals and can be aggressive and inconsolable, and they’re just a lot.

And some of us grew up feeling like we were a lot, and it takes, it’s not always common sense how to parent this type of child well because it seems like we wanna make them smaller and make them fit in, but they end up, spicy ones, being the world changers and the artists and the activists, but it’s really exhausting parenting them.

So I have a, a membership that people join and we coach, um, three times a month on Zoom, and then all my classes are in there, and I have a very transformational, let me say that again, transformational class just for moms of spicy ones because nobody understands what it’s like because about 20% of kids have a really intense temperament- Mm

and what I would call more loyalty to their own soul than to what an adult wants, and that’s actually not very typ- typical. Mm. Most kids, um, kinda wanna go with the flow and they wanna belong, and this kid does wanna belong, but they ambush, uh, relationships a lot. Mm-hmm. So I speak from experience.

Healing Yourself While Raising Your Child 

Christa Innis: Well, so when did you kind of decide that was gonna be your focus and your life work to be able to help other moms with spicy kids?

Mary Van Geffen: I think I’ve always felt a little bit different, and have had tension with my own mother where I, she has said before, like, “My job is to knock you down a few pegs. There’s only one queen in this house.” You know, we were just constantly- Mm … going at it, and I didn’t want that kind of relationship with my daughter, and I saw it start to develop.

Mm. And meanwhile, I have a very mild child son, and the differences between them, it was interesting to see that it, a, a lot of it is just, like, how somebody comes out the womb. Some of it can be trauma, some of it can be neurodivergence. Mm. But there, there is a distinct different, and a different way of being a leader with those people, and a different way of communicating that doesn’t sort of raise up their hackles and make them feel more demand avoidant.

Mm-hmm. My poor husband, he’s learning those as we go. But, um, I’ve, I realized it, I think mostly when I had a child and thought, I found myself telling someone, like, “I don’t really like her. I love her.” Mm. “But I don’t like this kid. They seem to always be, nothing is easy with this kid, and they’re so bossy, and they’re so demanding.”

And it ended up that I was using a lot of phrases that had been used about me– Mm … because that was all I knew, and I was sort of continuing a, a, a generational wound, and I wanted to stop it. And so I first dragged her to therapy and wanted a diagnosis for her. Must be something wrong with her, like, give me some letters.

Mm. I’ll take ODD, I’ll take PDA, ASD, I don’t care. Well, it ended up that that therapist said, “Why don’t you come back, um, next week without her?” And I was like, “Oh, yeah, so you can tell me what a psychopath I have.” And we didn’t talk about her, we talked about me, and we talked about my little person inside me.

And I kept going back week after week, and my daughter never went back to therapy, and there’s nothing wrong with her. She’s a spicy one, and so am I. Mm. And so that sort of brought me on this journey, and then I’ve been on the internet since 2011, um, talking about it. And, you know, got my coaching certification both with Simplicity Parenting and with, um, Co-Active Professional Coaching.

But mostly it’s like the school of, um, working individually with so many women. I saw the same ways that we were ambushing ourselves, and our victim mentality, and, and the way that we were communicating that was actually creating power struggles. And so it was just kinda cool. After, after about the 100th coaching, um, person, you know, it’d be like an eight-week session, I created a course, and then 1,700 people have gone through that course, and it’s changed them.

And then now I have a membership where you can take that course, um, and meet with me. Because sometimes we just need somebody else to bounce off our issue, because a lot of moms are saying- are thinking at least, “Is it me or is it my kid that’s causing all this combustion- Mm-hmm … and this emotional, and am I not, am I not firm enough?

Am I too firm? Why am I walking on eggshells?” And I just have a lot of heart for that parent. Um, and also there’s so much judgment. That’s why when we did our- Mm-hmm … sketch, I could access immediately that, like, clutching of pearls of, “Oh my gosh, you let your child do that? I would never.” It’s like, well it’s not letting them do it, it’s being very precise about what I’m willing to, like, stand on, um, business about, and what I let go ’cause it doesn’t actually matter.

It might matter a little bit to the culture. Mm-hmm. But when you have a counter-cultural kid, you gotta make some different decisions and really operate out of what matters to you and your value system. You can’t please other people.

Parenting Through Connection, Not Control 

Christa Innis: Mm, I love that. I know, and, and I feel like you, you said a lot about when, I mean, I feel like when you become a parent in general, they talk about how a lot of your traumas come up or things that you never dealt with as a, as a child, or tr- like things really trigger you in new ways.

And so we don’t always know until we’re in that situation of how we’re gonna respond, and then we’re like, “Wait, I did sound like my mother.” Or you know, like, I, oh, I said something that was kinda like locked back here, and you’re like, “Wait, is that how I wanna respond?” Or, um, are they, or and I always hear the thing, like, they’re not giving you a hard time, they’re having a hard time.

So I try to like res- like re- like rehearse those in my, or repeat those in my head, like, during those challenging moments. So I don’t know if I would say I have a spicy… She’s spicy at times, for sure. But, um- Well,

Mary Van Geffen: every two-year-old is spicy in my opinion. And every teenager is, because their job is to individuate and separate from you and find their sense of self, and that’s very spicy when you like to have control and you like to have a say.

Mm-hmm. Um, and you want a lot of communication and validation, and they’re not gonna give you that in those ages.

Christa Innis: Yeah. And so how can parents, like, I know you said there’s a, there’s a quiz they can take. So for the, for the parents listening right now, and they’re kind of in that zone of they’re like, “I’ve, I’m having a lot of challenges with my child,” what’s, what’s like a small exercise or something that a parent can do to kinda like look inward to kind of like almost like move forward and kind of like, um, maybe parent themselves better in this moment?

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah, and those might be two different directions, right? Because they’re both important. There’s, there’s how you show up for your kid, and then there’s also, how are you gonna show up for yourself? Mm-hmm. And slowing things down a little bit and putting your hand on your heart or your belly and asking yourself, like, “What do I need right now?

How am I doing?” Like, treating yourself like a friend or someone you’re in charge of caring for, because you are, that’s really important.

Christa Innis: Mm-hmm.

Mary Van Geffen: And I think that shifts things. You’re a different parent when you’ve started the interaction with checking in with what you need, or you’ve started the day by brushing your own teeth and getting dressed and feeling good about, that you’re, you’ve been sort of done the bare basics of self-care.

Like, that’s important. The other sort of avenue is how you interact with them, and I think you can improve the way you show up and the way you lead with becoming the calmest person in the room. Mm-hmm. And so often we’re taking our cues from this really volatile kid, or we’re taking things they say personally, and the goal is to become a person that just lets what, how they behave not impact how you show up, ’cause they’re gonna have their really bad days and their good days, but who do you want to be?

And I think a small little step towards that is just a pause, and I call it a conscious pause, but any parenting coach or educator- Mm-hmm … is gonna talk about delaying your response, the, the time between your response and what they did that really irritated you, like expanding the time in between those two things.

Mm-hmm. And delaying, um, don’t just act. There’s no sense of emergency, even though your body often tells you there is. I mean, unless there’s a car coming for them or, you know, there’s, rarely is parenting an emergency, but our body is, like, sending us all these signals that it is. Mm-hmm. So pausing and giving your s- your brain a chance to catch up with what’s happening and to be in your, you know, prefrontal cortex rather than back here in your brain stem that speaks in verbs and says, “Hit, stop, run,” you know?

Mm-hmm. That’s not the part we can parent out of. The only way to get into our calm self when we’ve been triggered or, like, our blood pressure goes up, is to pause, to have a, to extend the time before we react.

Christa Innis: Mm, I love that. I know I’ve, I feel like especially, like, we talk about, like, toddlers and parenting, it’s like that deep breath or, like, stepping aside out of the room can, like, make such a difference, and I’ve learned to, like, also say, like, outside, out loud to my daughter, like, “Mommy just needs a moment,” and I’ll, like, step out and I’ll just, and I’ll take a deep breath.

And I’ve noticed, too, when she’ll get frustrated, she’ll now be like she’ll take a breath. And I think, like, us kind of, like, you know, showing that, that, like, “Hey, we’re going through something right now. We need a minute, and it’s okay.” Um, but one thing I wanted to ask, too, so we were kind of talking before how this podcast really started with, like, wedding stories and event stories, and turned into very, like, relationship dynamics, right?

And so something you said made me think about unsolicited advice, and especially being a parent of a spicy one, like if you’re out and they’re having a tantrum or they don’t wanna listen. How do you, not you personally, but as, as a parent listening, how do they, how do you respond to unsolicited advice or stares or judgment from other people?

Um, how, I, I mean, mom, moms in general deal with so much judgment, right?

Mary Van Geffen: Mm-hmm,

Christa Innis: yeah. But especially, um- Having a child that’s maybe a little more strong-willed, um-

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah, who’s having a, like, an antisocial tirade-

Christa Innis: Mm …

Mary Van Geffen: in Target, and maybe they’re too big to lift up out, and you know you have to sit there while they freak out.

Um, so first off, knowing the relationship you have with that person who’s trying to give their two cents or their judging glare, if, if they aren’t someone who’s going to be in your life and is in a relationship that you want to nurture, you really don’t owe that person anything, um, you know, other than keep them safe, and they’re safe even though your kid’s making a lot of sound.

And this whole society is just not built for children, and it would be a gentler, warmer, I think safer place if it were a little more, um, okay for kids to be kids. So I just think that’s number one, is be aware that this person is not in your life. Um, and yet it does hurt when someone rolls their eyes or makes a little snide comment.

And so I, I literally have to visualize almost, like, a golden bubble around me and my kid, and it is positivity and light in here, and if anybody else feels differently, like, their judgment can’t get into that bubble. Like, it just- Mm-hmm … helps me to have a visualization of that. You may have some phrases that you s- have ready to say.

Like, if someone’s like, “Wow, I would never let my kid act that way,” you can say, “Well, I’m so glad he’s not yours, then.” Um, you know, you can have l- some things that you like to say, but I don’t- Mm-hmm … think it does anything to respond. Um, but if you’re a spicy one, you probably wanna respond, right? Like, you know, you want justice.

That, that’s a big part of being a spicy one, is this sense that you can, you, you can impact and, and create justice. So I think you have to… You’re, you’re working so hard to not take what your kid does personally, and you can’t take personally what… There’s a lot of people who see you allowing emotion, which is so silly, ’cause you don’t allow it.

Like, you can either stuff it under or- Mm-hmm … uh, it’s gonna happen. But when they see you making a compassionate space for that, it can sometimes trigger other people who never got that. Mm. “I, nobody ever listened to me. I had to, I got smacked if I acted…” And out, up comes like a, almost like a survival mechanism of, like, if, if what I’m seeing in front of me- I, I long for and wish that I had had that, then that makes a lot of my childhood wrong, and that means…

It, it just, it’s so existential, I think, for people. Mm. And so if we can just know that, that, that they’re having their own experience about your kid, or maybe they are highly sensory, um, sensitive, and they’re just covering their ears or making a pained face because they literally just can’t handle excess sound.

Well, that’s up to them to get to a space that’s private, go sit in their car or whatever. It’s just, it’s not your responsibility to protect other people from your child when, when the thing that’s happening is a loud sound or distress. Yes, our whole society needs to have more tolerance for other people’s distress.

I think there’d be a lot less fights and war and nastiness if that were the case.

Christa Innis: Mm-hmm. Yeah, 100%. No, I, I, I love that. I think that’s such a great point about- Y- you kind of putting that, like, golden bubble, like you said, around the two of you, because I think it’s so easy, especially as moms, especially walking into motherhood just feeling like, “Okay, there’s all these eyes on me now,” or, “Oh, if they cry…”

Like, you’re not used to that, right? Before you’re a parent, you’re just kind of like, you know, you can s- get by, do what you need to do, but you’re not gonna just scream out in public, right? And so you’re not used to all these eyes on you, so I feel like that’s such a good point, just focusing on, like, your, your goal is to take care of your child right now.

Ignore the judgment around you. And, and I think what you said is so powerful about it’s usually their own, not necessarily, um, like you said, their own traumas or their, their own kind of thing they might be dealing with that they never had the chance to, or maybe, maybe they don’t have that relationship with their parents, so they’re like, “Oh, what’s this?

Why is this so, like… Why are you having a conversation with them? You, you know, this is not how I was raised.” And you see that on social- It’s a- … media too.

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah, it’s a little bit like, I, I happen to be Christian. I’m not trying to get all spiritual on you, but, like, there’s that whole image of Jesus washing people’s feet, and that was, like, disgusting in that time because people- Mm

were wearing strappy sandals walking through the dust and the dirt, and it was like, ew, why is he doing that? And I think it’s a little bit like when we kneel down and we take m- take c- a careful moment to exhale, and we let go of the fact that, oh, my gosh, I’m not gonna be able to get in and out of this store.

This is happening, but this is happening, so I’m not gonna fight this, and we just sort of sink into it, and we take a non-threatening pose with our child. I think it’s healing for people to see that and be like, wow, she’s, she’s almost valuing that child like they’re a fellow human.

Christa Innis: Mm-hmm.

Mary Van Geffen: A- and I think it leaves people a little changed.

I, I remember early in my mothering, like, seeing people talk softly to a child who was acting ugly, as my mother would’ve said it, right? Mm. And being like, oh, wow, there’s a different way. We can stay tender even when we’re disappointed. Mm-hmm. Like, it’s just a, it’s a skill a lot of people don’t have.

Christa Innis: Yes.

Yeah, I think that’s amazing. I think that’s one thing that- We do keep doing, like, better as parents as we kind of, like, learn is like, okay, I didn’t like how this happened when I was a child. Not necessarily it was good or bad, but it didn’t work for me, and so this is how I want to change the next generation or this is how I want to handle this situation.

Um, and like that’s, that’s something I see a lot is like s- getting down on their level and talking to them is like, “Okay, well these are your two choices,” or you know, “You can do this or this,” or, um, “If we do this, then it’s gonna lead to B.” But you know, I, I just think-

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah, but also when they are me- when they are beside themselves and freaking out, the less words the better.

Christa Innis: Mm-hmm.

Mary Van Geffen: I mean, they can’t take it in. They are flooded. Mm-hmm. So I do see that this generation has left behind hitting, which is awesome, and spanking. They haven’t, uh, I mean not everyone’s left it behind, but I think modern parents, uh, know that that’s not developmentally appropriate to use violence to discipline.

But now they’re doing a lot of over talking. Mm-hmm. Um, and it’s not, it’s, what’s being received in that moment when your child is freaking out is really like a mammal to mammal thing. Like- Mm … it, how’s your body? Does it look non-threatening? Are you calm or are you, are your eyebrows way high and your, and your teeth, uh, clenched?

And like are, what are you c- what is your mammal body communicating to your child’s mammal body? That’s most important. And so kind of less talk and more like I’m, I’m gonna hold space for this. I’m gonna allow this. I’m not gonna rush through this. Mm-hmm. I don’t have to like it, um, and I don’t have to try to talk my kid out of it, ’cause it doesn’t, it rarely works with a spicy one.

Christa Innis: Mm. And so you said it can sometimes be linked to neurodivergence, but that’s not always the case?

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah, I would say 30% of people who would say, “Oh yeah, I’ve got a spicy one based on my quiz” would also say, “And we have a diagnosis.” But the rest are just- Mm-hmm … Enneagram eights if you’re into the Enneagram, or, um, I’m a four, but it’s, it’s just a type of temperament that has a lot of discontent and, um, can see the glass half full, who’s a, a child who’s just louder.

Sometimes we have a voice box where we come into a room and, I mean, I, my husband walked in just now and was like, “Oh my gosh, what a day.” And he, he got, like, within a couple feet from me and I’m like, “You’re screaming.” Now, I wish I would say it in a nicer way. I’m still working on that. But that doesn’t mean someone’s neurodivergent.

That said, like, the work I have in my book, Parenting A Spicy One, or in my membership, I always want you to do it concurrently with going and pursuing a diagnosis. If you have an inkling in your mama heart, you know, a, kind of a knowing that something’s off, then definitely double path that. But whether or not your kid has a diagnosis has nothing to do with the work you need to do to, um, show up for your inner child and for them in a way that you’re proud of.

Christa Innis: Mm-hmm. And then do you think, too, like, the parent-child relationship also, like, let’s say the parent’s neuro- neurodivergent and the child is not, but can that cause- More, uh, riff is the wrong word, but can m- almost make the child seem more spicy because maybe human-

Mary Van Geffen: Yes, you are so smart. Yeah. And it’s not even about neurodivergence.

I would say, I, okay, I’m not gonna put a number to it. There are many women that come to me talking about their spicy one, but if I had their spicy one at my house, I’d be like, “This kid’s a dream. This kid’s a go with the flow.” But mama has some things she’s working through. Mm. Maybe she has a high need for control.

Mm. Maybe she has, um, is addicted to peace and, and didn’t consider how chaotic having a child is, or maybe she’s got some, some childhood wounding, right? Mm-hmm. And so sometimes our kid is just sort of the accumulating event that, uh, um, it, and we start by making them wrong and saying, “Something’s gotta be wrong with them,” and that was kind of my situation.

I happen to be neurodivergent. My kid is not. Mm-hmm. Um, at, at the time, I thought I was just ADHD. I’ve since gotten an autistic, um, diagnosis. Mm-hmm. So just, my, my daughter’s now 21, and she came home for Thanksgiving, and she was standing across the kitchen aisle excited and telling a story, and I was like, “Can you take it down a notch?”

And this, my husband was like, “She doesn’t need to take down a notch,” and I’m like, “He’s right.” Mm-hmm. Here I am. I wrote the book on parenting a spicy one, and I’m still on some level overstimulated just by the, um, the chaos of, of people in my home. And so that can, I could turn that around and say something’s wrong with my daughter, but it’s really me.

I need to, I, I now wear loop earphones when everyone’s h- there. I can still hear.

Christa Innis: Mm-hmm.

Mary Van Geffen: Um, I just, it’s a little more tampered down, and it doesn’t feel so jarring.

Christa Innis: Yeah, I saw this meme the other day that said something about, like, I’ll be like, “Oh, I’m so overwhelmed,” and it’s literally just two people text me at the same time.

And I was like- So true … “Oh my gosh, that’s so me,” ’cause I can go from, like, I’ll be, like, very focused, and I’m like, good. And then all of a sudden I’ll, it’ll be, like, three things I’m trying to do at once, and I’m like, “Whoa,” and then my child’s, like, running through talking. I’m like, “Oh my gosh, what is going on here?”

Right. Like, one thing needs to stop. Yeah. Um, so I’m like, I,

Mary Van Geffen: I- One thing that’s really helped me, like, like, I’ve had, I’ve known I had ign- ADHD since I was 30, and I’m 55 now, but one thing I recently read was ADHD, um, you are, you s- you focus on what’s interesting. And neurotypicals focus on what’s important.

And I was like, dang- Yeah … that’s so true. That’s why so much is not getting done around me, because it’s the things that make dopamine, that give me interest, that are novelty, that I’m all in on and make happen. And, uh, and that was just kind of helpful for me, that dichotomy.

Christa Innis: Wow. I’m, I’ve never been officially diagnosed by w- but, like, it runs in the family, so I’m like, I’m pretty sure I’m, like, ADHD.

But when you said that, I’m

Mary Van Geffen: like, oh, yeah Well, I think there’s something pretty neurodivergent about putting a microphone to your mouth- … or putting your face, doing silly things on the internet. I think that’s a neurodivergent trait, and I think- I think so … w- everyone’s like, gosh, everyone on the internet must be, um, is talking about ADHD.

Well, I think it’s a certain type of person that feels comfortable enough to get on there and g- gets certain needs met, and I d- I don’t think it’s a very neurotypical thing to do. It’s why all your friends are like, “Oh, I could never.” You know, it’s like, well, yeah. You have… Uh, once, one person once said to me, “Your autism makes you not have a creative block,” and they defined creative block as, like, you’re worried what other people will think about what you’re doing.

But I’m kind of oblivious to the fact that what I’m doing is kind of weird, because I, I’m just not really aware of that and I don’t care. And that-

Christa Innis: Mm-hmm …

Mary Van Geffen: in some ways allows me to create a little more, with more freedom.

Christa Innis: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I know. It’s, it’s interesting, too. I think, like, when I tell people, ’cause I’ll, I’ll say something about being introverted or being, like, kind of shy, and people are like, “What?

You’re not, no you’re not. You’re, you b- you post stuff on the internet.” I’m like, but I’m in the privacy of my own home when I do it, and I don’t think about the fact that people see it. Even though I see numbers, I’m just not, like, I don’t know, to me, I’m just- It doesn’t feel

Mary Van Geffen: real. Yeah.

Christa Innis: It doesn’t feel real.

It doesn’t- Yeah … like, I don’t see them over there. So that’s just, that’s a very interesting take. Um, so kind of getting back to, I know we kind of made, like, a s- a switch there, but kind of switching back to your book- Welcome to me. Yeah, I know. I’m like, 80 conversations over here, just popping over the place.

But I just- Yeah … loved what you said about, like, we follow what’s interesting, not important. ‘Cause I used to- Mm … I used to hate when I would have bosses that would say, um, “This is a priority,” and then two minutes later, they’d tell me another priority. And I’m like, what’s the priority? Right. And then I was like- Priority’s

Mary Van Geffen: supposed to be one thing.

Christa Innis: Yes. Couldn’t do it. Could not do it. Um, what do you think, so what do you think the biggest mindset shift parents can make if they’re raising a strong-willed child? I know we kind of talked about some different things, um- But what’s something that comes to mind if they’re kind of in that, in that tight spot?

Mary Van Geffen: Well, I think two things come to mind. One is a lot of times when we have a strong-willed, spicy one, we kind of stop liking them- Mm-hmm … because they cause so much, so many challenges. There’s so much we’re working on at once with them, so many lagging skills and, um, ways that we wish they would more, be, um, more cooperative.

And so I think it’s really important to shift your mind to, what do you like about this kid? What is good about them? I’ve, I’ve had countless women in my office where I, they wanna tell me how awful this kid is, and I let them unburden a little bit- Mm-hmm … ’cause it is a lot to hold. And then I say, “So what do you like about this child?”

And then they start to tear up as they talk about it, but it’s almost like we don’t let ourselves go there because there’s so much work to do and, and we feel responsible. And so it’s really important, like, make yourself a note in your phone with, uh, their name, and any time you think of something about them that makes you smile or that’s already okay, um, the parts of their temperament.

In fact, if, in my book Parenting a Spicy One, if you take off the cover, the whole thing is just a list of all the positives of a strong-willed kid- Mm. Mm … because I think we, um, we get separated from it. So that’s an important… I mean, this is, this is going to be a future CEO. This is gonna be somebody who changes the world, and of course they’re not easy to parent.

So liking them is a huge shift. And then the other shift is, like, I think we get in this mode of, like, how do I discipline them? How do I change them? How do I improve them? And none of that can be done outside of a relationship.

Christa Innis: Mm.

Mary Van Geffen: And so the most important thing you can do is connect with them before you correct, before you direct.

And what does that look like? A, a connection is, um, we’re both making eye contact, if this kid is able to make eye contact. We have a soft, um, e- expression. Our, our body is, is, um, relaxed. Maybe there’s laughter and a smile. Um, you need a lot of that throughout the day in order to have the, um, the emotional credit to then say, “Hey, don’t do that,” or, “We’re gonna do this.”

Like, you’ve gotta take a moment and get into their world because they’re, they’re sort of, you know… The pace of childhood is, it’s like being on drugs. You’re so into, you’re playing with water and looking at the droplets, and someone saying, “Mom, Mom, Mom, Mom, Mom,” which is- … the, you know, “Come get ready,” but you’re not hearing that.

You’re so in what you’re doing. So take a moment and enter their world. Take a beat, 30 seconds. Like, I am amazed watching moms pick up their kids sometimes, how you’ll be on the phone while picking up that kid, and it’s like, “Let’s go, let’s go. Come over.” And, and that kid is gonna have huge, um, meltdowns because they need that moment of reconnecting and being, um, the, you know, reestablishing that paper-thin attachment that just needs to…

And that even happens when they wake up. When they wake up, there’s been a separation. It’s time to connect first. Mm-hmm. Uh, when they go to sleep and they’re really resisting it, that’s sort of, um, uh, they’re worried about the disconnection that’s about to happen, a separation anxiety. Anyway, so connect- Mm

before you direct.

Christa Innis: Love that. Um, and I love what you said about like finding the positives too of like what you like about your child as well. Um, ’cause I, I think, eh, I don’t know if it’s like a way of like how people connect, but I feel like they always say like negatives first, just in general. Like, like think about when your kid turns two and they’re like, “Oh, terrible twos.”

I had some people say that when my daughter was turning two, um, like, “Oh, terrible twos.” And I would quickly correct them. I’d be like, “No, terrific twos. It’s the terrific twos.” Aw. And we loved, we loved when she was two. It was great. And-

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah …

Christa Innis: and it’s just like, and I’m not saying that’s gonna obviously solve, you know, solve problems and stuff, but it really is like a mind shift of being like, no, it’s terrific because you know what?

They’re at this new stage, and they’re learning things. But people are so- Well,

Mary Van Geffen: you’re also bringing up the point that women, we tend to, um, be very wary of seeming like we’re bragging. Mm. And, um, we put ourselves down to seem safe to other women, and I think some of that happens as moms when it’s like, “How’s so-and-so?”

“Ugh. Well, let me tell you.” Like, we wanna connect, and we don’t wanna seem, um, like we’re bragging. And, uh, uh, the spicy one needs you to brag because there’s so many people like that do not appreciate them. Often their, their own teacher. So- Taking a moment, especially the overheard brag where your kid can hear you saying, “Can I tell you what my kid did today?”

Totally set the table. Put everything, and put the forks and the knives. Like, make a big deal of what is positive. Mm-hmm. And maybe have a conversation with your girlfriend. Like, can we talk about what’s good about our kids? I need a space to practice doing that. Same with our husbands. Like- Mm-hmm … I, I was raised by a woman who has a lot of contempt for, um, her husband, my father.

Mm. And, like, it’s a way of connecting where she’ll be like, “Ugh, let me tell you what your father did.” And then I hear myself doing that a little bit- Mm-hmm … and I wanna be my husband’s biggest cheerleader. Like- Mm-hmm … that’s the kind of relationships we want, but we sort of get in these lazy habits of, it’s almost like gossip where we share what’s negative about the people we love, and that’s, that’s a habit we gotta, we gotta put the kibosh on.

Christa Innis: Yes, yes. No, I, I so agree with that. I feel like it is like you don’t wanna sound like, um, bra- uh, yeah, like braggy. We, we, we want to, like, humble ourselves in a way, and it’s, whether it’s talking about ourselves, our kids, or our partners, I feel like it’s, it’s this thing. Like, I remember I was talking to someone once, and I was like, “Oh, yeah, my husband does most of the cooking.”

And then I was like, th- in my head later, I’m like, did I sound like I was bragging? I don’t know. Like- Like, did I, like, does that sound weird? I’m like, and then I’m like, oh, ’cause I’m a crappy cooker. You know? Like, I’m like, I’m like, do I need to turn around to, like, these self-deprecating. You know-

Mary Van Geffen: Well- …

Christa Innis: you feel like you have

Mary Van Geffen: to

you’re right. There’s, the other side of it is, like, have you ever, like, spilled your, you’re trying to be intimate with a new friend, and you’re like, “Yeah, I’m just really sad about this thing.” And, and then they come back and like, “Everything’s great for me,” and you kind of feel like, oh, I don’t know if I’m close to this person.

Like, they never- Yes … they’re never vulnerable with me. So it’s- Mm-hmm … it’s so hard to, to work on female friendships. So hard. I get you, right.

Christa Innis: No, totally. Um, so for people that get your book, again, it’s named Parenting a Spicy One, what can they expect out of it? What kind of exercises? What does it kind of take them through?

Mary Van Geffen: Uh, it takes them, like the first four chapters don’t have a lot to do with your kid. I mean, it does take you through sort of their temperament and that, but really we do a lot of inner work, and both talking about what does your inner voice say to you? Like, do you have a critical inner voice or do you have one that’s positive?

And a lot of us don’t have a positive one so we’ve gotta rebuild it. So there’s even like a, a test in there of like which kind of negative voice, or I call them your, um, uh… What do I call them? I’m, I want you to have an inner best friend and a lot of people have an inner mean girl. Mm-hmm. And so we’ll work on that.

And then eventually we start getting to like here are the, um, ways that you can alter your leadership and your communication style to m- increase cooperation. And then there’s some like tricky chapters that I needed which is like what do you do when the, when the meltdown is violent? Mm-hmm. Nobody talks about that so there’s a whole chapter on that.

What do you do when your husband or your partner is not on board with d- with sort of a respectful kind of parenting? Mm. And they’re making things even worse? W- and that’s a chapter. And then another chapter is what do you, the judgment of, that comes from other people, how do you respond? And there’s a bunch of scripts in there.

Mm. And then the other one that I think’s important is how do you protect the mild-child sibling- Mm … from kind of like what’s going on with the spicy one who takes a lot of the oxygen out of the family?

Christa Innis: Mm. Okay, awesome. I love that. And where can people find your book?

Mary Van Geffen: Anywhere books are sold. Cool. I did the, um, if you like my voice I did the Audible.

Oh, cool. So if you wanna hear me while driving.

Christa Innis: I love that. Okay, I’m gonna check it out. I definitely have to read it. Um, I love, I love a good coaching book and I feel like I can never Get enough, like, parenting advice. I love, I’ve de- love just learning from- But

Mary Van Geffen: it’s also overwhelming to have so, so many people in our feed giving us advice.

Mm-hmm. And so I hope when you read this, like, there’s a chapter called Teaching Life Skills to a Hellion, and I had to fight to say hellion because my, um, publisher was like, “I don’t know. Is that a, a bad word?” No, it’s not. Yeah. But, um, you will find that I, I’m trying to help you in this book figure out what your values are, what’s important to you, not what’s important to me, ’cause there, I might really prize, um, independence while you’re prizing a community, and neither is wrong.

But knowing your values, and there’s a list of 200 of them, um, as part of the book. Knowing what you value helps you, like, step off a lot of, um, arguments you would normally get in with your kid, and then you realize, “Wait a second, like, I, this doesn’t matter to me much as this.” Like, kinda knowing what your non-negotiables are, like, when you need to be firm and when you can be more flexible.

Trust Your Gut Before You Say ‘I Do’ 

Christa Innis: Mm. All right, cool. Love that. Awesome. Um, okay, let’s switch over a little bit, little, little bit of topic here, over to some wedding drama. You said you had- Wedding drama … a wedding story of your own you would like to share, so-

Mary Van Geffen: Oh, yes … let’s

Christa Innis: have at

Mary Van Geffen: it. Well, since this is dedicated to weddings, I, um, was asked to marry- this man.

And, um, we were heading towards the, the big day, and it was starting to not feel right, and I kinda realized that I had, um, I had… I, I realized that the night he had proposed to me, I said to myself, “Well, Mary, it’s about time. You’ve, you’ve, you’ve been with a lot of different kinds of guys, and you’ve lived large, and this guy, look at him, he really loves you.

Like, I don’t think you’re gonna get any better than this. You should just do it.”

Christa Innis: Hmm.

Mary Van Geffen: And it was two weeks before the big day, and I called my mom and I said, “I made a mistake. I don’t wanna marry this man. I don’t, I don’t love him that way.” And she said, “Well, tough titties, because we have sent out the invitations.

They are out. It’s at the yacht club. You are gonna go through with this, and then whatever you do on the other side is up to you.”

Christa Innis: That’s my story.

Mary Van Geffen: And I did not stay married to that man, but we did go have that big wedding. And, uh, now I’m on my second and final, uh, marriage, and we’ve been together 22 years, and everything worked out.

But I’m… If my daughter calls the day of the wedding and is like, “It… What… It’s not the right…” I’m gonna, I’m gonna let her pull out.

Christa Innis: Yeah. You’d be like, “I’ll be right there,” because the work then to not do it. It’s f- it’s wild the number of stories I’ve heard where they’re like, “I had a gut feeling, and I still went through with it, and then we ended up divorced.”

Or there’s like… I, I was in a wedding once where she was in the car, I, I’m trying to think of this, before the rehearsal crying to us. And at the bachelorette party she was cry- And I was like, “You don’t have to do this.” Like, “It’s okay,” and- Oh,

Mary Van Geffen: you did say that?

Christa Innis: Yeah. We all said, “It’s okay if you don’t, if you don’t wanna have to do it.”

And she was like, “Vendors have already been paid. We’re doing it.” And they got divorced, like I wanna say two years later I mean,

Mary Van Geffen: it felt a little bit like an execution where it’s like everyone’s waiting, the stage has already been set- Yeah … the noose is, is up. Yeah, that’s tough.

Christa Innis: Wow. That’s… Yeah. Yeah, and then you s- yeah, you have to go, go through with it.

And then to know-

Mary Van Geffen: And in our society has… There’s so many movies where someone’s like, “Baby, you just have cold feet.” Yes. “That’s totally normal.” And so we don’t trust ourselves. I mean, maybe, I would love to know if, if from all your interviews cold feet is a part of really good marriages, but I was totally sure my second time.

And, um, my, one of my favorite movies is Runaway Bride- Mm … because I feel like she made the right decision even though it was at the last minute many times. Love

Christa Innis: that movie. Yes. Um, yes, I still vividly remember seeing that movie in theaters. Um, it’s, it’s funny you bring up the cold feet thing because, yes, I remember growing up always hearing like, “Oh, you get cold feet.

You get so nervous.” And you know, they had like the, the bag that you’re like, “Okay.” You know? Like, “Oh, it’s nervous. Just go.” And like I, and a- again, I don’t know, everyone’s different, but like I didn’t have any of those nerves on my wedding day. But then again, we also lived together for many years, so I wasn’t like, “Oh, this is a new person that we’re gonna live together for the first time.”

I was just like, “All right. Cool. It’s next, this next chapter. Let’s, let’s party. Let’s hang out.” Like, it’s the next step.

Mary Van Geffen: But also, like if… I would think an introvert would be more likely to get cold feet because it’s, you basically- Totally … have to go on a stage and, and be the center of attention. I could see that c- giving you pause.

Christa Innis: Yeah.

Mary Van Geffen: But if you’re like, “I’m not sure this is the right guy,” then trust it.

Christa Innis: Yeah. Yeah, I don’t know. I… Well, see, that’s… It’s weird. That’s where like introversion’s like so confusing to me, but it’s like I, especially if it’s in a room of people that I know and love, I don’t feel introverted by that. It’s like getting up like on a stage where I don’t know people, I’d be like shaking.

Like, and, and I feel, and I feel like my inner voice is very like judgey of myself. Like I’ll talk to someone- Mm … and then I like will like leave or get in my car and I’m like, “Why did I say that?” Or, “Oh, my gosh. What?” Like- You could do a- … “I’m so weird.”

Mary Van Geffen: You could do a skit on that. That- That’s a good one. Yeah.

I’ll be the inner voice. I’ll be like, I’ll wear a brunette w- um, wig and be like, “What were you thinking? They must think you’re so weird.”

Christa Innis: Yeah. Why would you, why would you wear that? Why would you say that? It’s like, it’s like when you go to the movie and they’re like, “Enjoy your movie,” and you’re like, “You too.”

And I’m like, “Ugh. Why?” Mm.

Mary Van Geffen: Yes.

The Mother-in-Law Who Wouldn’t Take No for an Answer 

Christa Innis: That’s, that’s my life. Um, okay. All right. Let’s get into this week’s story submission that someone had sent me. Um, okay, so as always, you can kind of like stop me if you want, or we’ll kind of just react as we go, and let’s see what happens. I- in case this one’s like… This one’s pretty short, so I do have a second one as, um, backup if it’s a little too short.

Okay, here we go. When we were planning our wedding, my husband’s mother insisted on singing Ave Maria during the ceremony. Oh, she insisted on s- okay. Okay. Wow. That, that starts off strong.

Mary Van Geffen: Wow. Making it about her.

Christa Innis: Yeah. That’s not even like a sp- like, I’ve heard a lot of like parents demanding to like give a speech at a wedding, which, uh, but to sing is-

Mary Van Geffen: Well, and to choose that song, which is like hyper religious, I guess Catholic, right?

I was raised Catholic. Um, very operatic. Like it’s a whole vibe. Mm-hmm. You don’t get to choose that vibe. Like-

Christa Innis: Right …

Mary Van Geffen: and, and I wonder if, was it at the wedding or was it at the, um, like the party later? I guess it would have to be the wedding, right?

Christa Innis: Right. Oh, man. Yeah, and what part? Is this like when they’re excha- like after or before exchanging vows, and it’s just like this dramatic moment?

Like-

Mary Van Geffen: I mean, that says so much about what the relationship’s gonna be like. Like, the centering of her having her moment. Like, that’s not your moment to have. I would be- but I would be cur- like, I think sometimes a mother-in-law is the first person that a woman learns to set boundaries with. And like you, you have to speak up.

People can’t read your mind. So when she says- Mm-hmm … she insisted, did, did anybody say, “No, that won’t work for us”? Like, what does that mean by she insisted? Did, did she just say, “I wanna do this,” and they both were too scared to say anything else? I don’t know.

Christa Innis: Right, and they just like built it into the ceremony.

Yeah. All right, let’s see. Um, her entire large family, seven siblings, had her sing at all of their weddings. So it’s like a tradition it sounds like. My husband is the second youngest, and there’s a 20-year age gap between him and his oldest sibling. Okay. I didn’t like my soon-to-be mother-in-law, and she clearly didn’t like me.

She even told my mother the night before the wedding that she knew we’d get divorced. I would not be having someone like that sing at my wedding.

Mary Van Geffen: That’s like having somebody come and, and do a hex.

Christa Innis: Mm.

Mary Van Geffen: Like having a, a bad fairy come, like put their juju all over the thing. That’s awful.

Christa Innis: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Uh, anyway, she may have had a nice voice many years ago, but she was now in her 60s at, at that time, and her voice was definitely not what it had used to be.

After many discussions and arguments with my soon-to-be husband, I agreed to let her sing during the part of the Catholic service when my little cousins would be bringing up the gifts of wine and water. So it caused so many arguments, which makes me think the husband said yes and she said no.

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah.

Christa Innis: And I’m like, I feel like after one no, they should’ve just been like, “Okay, we’re not doing it.”

But it sounds like the husband kept pushing and being like, “Well, she really wants to sing even though she doesn’t like you and thinks we’ll get divorced,” which…

Mary Van Geffen: Wow.

Christa Innis: Okay, so they let her sing. When that moment came, we couldn’t hear her sing at all. After a few minutes of silence, the soloist thankfully stepped in and just started another song.

Okay.

Mary Van Geffen: Like the microphone wasn’t working, I wonder?

Christa Innis: I don’t… Uh, yeah, after a few mis- yeah, I guess so. Maybe the microphone didn’t work or like she was like way too quiet or something L- I don’t know. Later I heard the music for Ave Maria begin right as communion was starting. She and her husband were supposed to come up for communion with my parents, my husband, and me.

We had argued about that exact issue for months. My poor music coordinator was completely flustered and didn’t know what to do because my mother-in-law was standing right there insisting on singing right then. So while this is going on, she’s like, “I’m singing now.”

Oh. I don’t even know how, what… It’s this fact that it’s during the ceremony when you’re like, there’s so many people here watching and, like, this is going on Yeah.

Mary Van Geffen: And probably half the group kinda knows the situation a little bit.

Christa Innis: Yes.

Mary Van Geffen: You know whose fault this is? Uh- I believe it is the, um, groom’s

Christa Innis: I

Mary Van Geffen: would say that

because it is the, it is the son’s responsibility to set boundaries with his mother. It is not… Like, he set her up to, his wife up to fail, making her have to even be in this communication. Like, he should have gone personally and been like, “No, Mom, it’s not gonna work for her.”

Christa Innis: Mm-hmm.

Mary Van Geffen: Even if you blame her, he should be the one setting the boundary.

Christa Innis: 100% agree. They should have never even, like, gone back and forth on it. If the wife’s, if the fiancé that wrote this in said no, that’s it. Like, it, it’s, it’s not even like, I don’t know, I just only feel like it should have been discussed this so long, and he should have been putting his foot down, for sure.

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah. It reminds me of the sketch you did about the sisters that wanted to be in the wedding.

Christa Innis: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And just constantly, like, pushing and pushing. Yeah. Um, uh, yeah. It’s, it’s wild. She got her moment after all, walking up the aisle and receiving communion after everyone else was seated. I swear she smirked at me.

She had pretended to agree with everything at the rehearsal but clearly had no intention of honoring our wishes. On top of that, my husband had 15 nieces and nephews under the age of 12, and we had agreed to a no, to a child-free wedding. Some of his siblings tried for months to change our minds, but we held firm.

Well, several of them showed up with their children anyway. We had no seats for them, no meals ordered. They weren’t well-behaved and caused distractions all night, and we s- Mm … and we were still charged for eight extra plates. My husband and I were paying for the entire wedding ourselves. The reception was at a lakeside resort that had a separate bar from the event space.

When Family Boundaries Predict the Marriage 

While we were out taking photos, his family went to that bar and told the staff to put everything on our tab, my God, even though we already had an open bar at the reception. We ended up with a bar bill in the thousands on top of reception cost. Again, we were young. We were just starting our careers while they were all well-established, and not one person offered to help cover the bill.

And to top it all off, my husband was a graphic artist just starting his career, so I was pay- paying for everything. He mooched off me for 30 years- … before I finally- Oh … kicked him to the curb. Here we go.

Mary Van Geffen: Oh. That was the clincher at the end. Okay. Did not

Christa Innis: see that coming. ‘Cause this is…

Mary Van Geffen: It was like a rotten beginning, and it never got better.

Christa Innis: So it was doomed from the start- Mm-hmm … but not because of her, uh, he, I mean, th- uh, what do I always say so many times on this? If the husband or the partner does not stand up for you right away when there’s some kind of, like, issue with maybe family or something, I don’t think they’re ever going to.

And so this just shows then he mooched off her for 30 years. I don’t know what that, necessarily that means, but-

Mary Van Geffen: Well, what do you think about th- this could be, like, a generational thing, but I agree that they need to stand up for you, but I don’t know if they have the skills yet. Is it okay that, that y- your relationship is so important to them that it’s the first time they’ve had to stand up to their mom?

Mm-hmm. I mean, I, I, I hear a lot of folks your age that are like, “You know, I don’t need to teach a man how to be a good partner.” But- Mm … you do learn so much as you’re together. Like, do you think it’s okay that at fir- his first glance is like, “Oh, I don’t wanna talk to her about this,” and then you explain to him, like, “No, it’s going to be crucial that throughout this relationship for me to maintain a relationship with your mom that you are the one who sets the boundaries.”

Like, what do you think about that?

Christa Innis: Yeah, no, I agree. I feel like it is the first time, and that’s… I actually just had Dr. Tracy, um, on the podcast, and she kinda talked… One of her books was about mother, mother-in-laws, and she d- basically said, like, it’s, it’s basically the first time that a h- like, a person has to distinguish between, like, their past family and the family dynamic that was there and now his new family.

And she basically said that, like, if there’s, like, a mother-in-law like this, maybe she’s a controlling mother-in-law, so she has to have everything her way, and maybe he was a more passive son and was very like, “Just do whatever Mom says.” And so yeah, it puts him in this position of like, well, Mom’s have, wants it this way.

You’re just this- Mm-hmm … you know, you’re just my new fiancé, but, like, Mom is over here, you know? And so yeah, I think it’s like, I, it, I feel like it’s a difficult position to be in, but when I… From the outside, I can be like, oh, he for sure, you know, he needs to just tell her no. But a- yeah, I’m sure it’s, like, way more-

Mary Van Geffen: Well, it’s interesting.

Now I’m on the other side. I, I have a son. He’s 19, and I notice when he’s… I, I, like, our relationship is very sweet and affectionate, and it, it will have to change to make space for someone else to be his primary person. Mm-hmm. And there is a loss to that. Mm-hmm. It’s not up to the bride to, like, help the mom through it.

You gotta go f- the mother-in-law, you gotta go find your own friends and talk through- Um, how, you know, this kid, this kid that you nursed is now not that available to you because they have a new family. Yes- Mm-hmm … there’s loss to it, but yeah. Y- um, so did she say anything else after the mooching part?

Christa Innis: She just ended with, “Shame on me,” that she, that he, she kicked him to the curb and it says, “Shame on me.”

Mm. So yeah, that was, that’s how it ended. So that’s like how the wild story kinda started, was all these things that just kinda were building up and went wrong. But I think, I think, like, the, I mean, like you said, it starts off with the mom insisting on singing, not taking no for an answer, and then even after they make all these discussions of, like, “This is, okay, we’re gonna f- we’re gonna let you sing during this part only,” she just does it her own way anyway.

So it just sounds like a mom that’s like, “I’m gonna have it my way. I’m not willing to negotiate.” Um-

Mary Van Geffen: And that means, like, she raised him with that same sort of me, me, me focus-

Christa Innis: Mm-hmm …

Mary Van Geffen: which would make him kind of emotionally stunted. Like, she w- if she’s, she’s probably always been, like, about her own, um, comfort and- And that’s, that meant that he couldn’t be the partner that she would need.

And I always wonder, when you have some wild mother-in-law like that, does she have a girl gang that she goes back to and says, “She tried to not let me sing at her wedding, so I got her. I went and sang later, right in the middle of communion. I got that bitch.” Like, does she have people that are, like, cheering her on and think that’s great?

And, like, is she in some kind of weird echo chamber? Yeah. Like, I just can’t think of a f- of any woman I know that would be like, “That’s awesome.” I think I- we would all, like, wince and be like- Like, no. Ew … “Ew, that’s sort of toxic.”

Christa Innis: Yes. I know. I wonder about that too. Uh, it’s gotta be, like, she’s, either if she is telling someone the story, she’s changing certain things.

You know, it’s that, like, the toxic daughter-in-law, or she’s maybe changing the story a little bit. Um- Yeah … and I feel like that’s what I try to do, like, in my skits too, is show, like, people, like, there’s a nuance to everything. Because one time someone commented on a story and they were like, “Well, you’re only getting one side.”

And I was like, “Well, of course I’m only getting one side,” ’cause that’s how a story works, that someone sends me their story, and I’m like, and, you know, I take it as much as I can. I’ll twist some things and I make it more dramatic maybe. Yeah. But that’s part of it. Like, if we saw it maybe from the mom’s perspective, maybe there was, like, an argument that happened and the daughter-in-law said something.

We don’t know, right?

Mary Van Geffen: We need some Boomer lady to start making her sketches that are, like, attacking the daughter. That’s so true, and, and the best books to me, or the best movies, don’t just, like, follow everybody- Mm-hmm … and you get everybody’s perspective, un- unless it’s, like, one of those ones where it completely shifts and each chapter is a, is, like, from the perspective- Right

of a different person. Yeah. But I don’t think those are great stories, the ones where the, the narrator’s just kind of following… Like, you, you wouldn’t know how that person’s feeling, and then this person. So I totally- Mm-hmm … appreciate that you’re focused on kind of one person is the hero.

Christa Innis: Yeah. And, and I feel like, too, it’s like, I’m sure, you know, there were some different things going on.

But I, but I think where we do agree too is about the, the fiancé does at least, like, where he’s not gonna stop all drama from happening. You know, if a p- the mom’s the mom and the, and the fiancé’s her fiancé, right? But I think he needs to be, like, like, a bridge or some, like, be like, “Okay, I’m, I’m gonna be protecting my new fiancé,” maybe.

Mm-hmm. And, and say, like, “Okay, we don’t want this together,” and s- kind of speak for them. And I think maybe- Yeah … that’s where the communication was kinda like, maybe he’d say one thing to his fiancé and then he’d be on the phone with his mom and be like, “Oh yeah- Oh … I’ll convince her,” you know? That’s where I kinda see it.

Yes. That’s what happened. He was playing both sides. “Oh, I’ll talk to her. Yeah. She’s, she’ll be fine.” And, um, and that’s one thing too, when I was talking to, um, uh, the, the therapist that came on. She was like, basically like- It’s hard for them to, you know, full- like fully play one side, you know, unle- unless they’re like, you know, um, I’m trying to, I’m kinda like stumbling on my words.

It’s

Mary Van Geffen: hard for a therapist, like in couples therapy you mean?

Christa Innis: No, I’m sorry. I meant like the husband to be able to like- pick,

Mary Van Geffen: you

Christa Innis: know, pick one side because it’s like he’s been told his whole life, “Okay, this is your mom, so like let’s just let Mom have her way,” and then, you know, you go to the, his new fiancé- Yeah,

Mary Van Geffen: but it like- You know, it’s just like- In a, in a functional family, nobody’s telling my son, “Just let your mom have her way.

She’s gonna make things pretty…” Like, that’s not a functional, healthy- Mm-hmm … uh, way to, for everybody to be communicating. So it’s like if this has deep roots, if, if this has been going on where the child has had to kinda kowtow to whatever the mom wants even as he became an adult, like-

Christa Innis: Mm-hmm.

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah … no good.

No good.

Christa Innis: Yeah. I know, and it makes me wonder if, if she sang at all the other siblings’ weddings, did she tell them? Or, you know, “Hey, I’m singing at your wedding,” or do they actually want her to sing at their weddings as well? That’s, that’d be

Mary Van Geffen: interesting. Also, like if you grow up and somebody’s been saying, “I can’t wait to sing at your wedding,” you don’t really know any different.

Like, you’re like, “Oh, that’s just part of how our family… This is our tradition in our family.” Um, it reminds me that I have a friend who’s like, “Oh, I told my child, like if I ever get dementia or become incapacitated like my mother, like immediately put me in a home.” And I was like, “Oh, really? ‘Cause I tell my kids, ‘Immediately let me live with you.

I wanna live with you. I will pay for it.'” And I think that’s probably toxic. Somebody needs to talk me out of it. But I feel like I don’t wanna go live in a weird institution and wear paper nightgowns and have people not check on me and, and waste away. Like- Ugh. “Let me just use my life savings and be in your back room and we’ll pay for a nurse,” but-

Christa Innis: Mm-hmm

Mary Van Geffen: I gotta probably get over that. I think that might be the, like the last elements of toxicity in me because- … they gotta have their own life. They can’t be taking care of me.

Christa Innis: Yeah, but don’t… Isn’t there, aren’t there studies where like you like live longer and do better when you’re with your family versus like-

Mary Van Geffen: For sure.

Yeah. Yeah, and, and I think in other non-Western cultures, there’s so much more reverence for the older generation and-

Christa Innis: Mm-hmm …

Mary Van Geffen: and, uh, and there’s multi-generations that live together. Here- Right … we’re so like hyper independent.

Christa Innis: I know. I know. It’s so sad. I know. I do see that a lot of times it’s like way more multi-generational homes, whereas here it’s like, okay, you’re kicked out at 18.

You live on your own and pay your own bills and-

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah … um- And 18 is so arbitrary. Yes. Like, it’s a random, um, legal number. Like, it doesn’t mean that… Obviously we all know your brain keeps needing to develop until you’re 26, and I think with… I mean, we’re totally getting off topic here. But with, with the way the economy is, there’s gonna be a lot of people with kids moving back in- Mm

and we need to figure out- What, how to do that in a healthy way, um, because economically I think people are gonna have to be able to do that.

Christa Innis: Totally. And I’ve seen more and more, like maybe it’s just coming up on my feed, but women g- like maybe like mid to late 20s, some even early 30s are like, “I still live at home because I lost my job and I had to do this.”

And, and I think letting go of that pressure, I’m not saying everyone needs to do it or should do it, I know that would not have worked well for me and my family, but, you know, everyone’s different. But, um, letting go of the pressure of like you have to be out and have your job, like as soon as you graduate college or high school.

Like, you know, everyone has their own path and kind of, you know, see what works, you know, test-

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah, I’m so, I’m so torn because I also think if you don’t communicate that like, “Okay, once you’re done college you’re on your own,” if it feels like, “Oh, I can just come back”- Yeah … I know several adult children that have like kind of wasted away in their mom’s basement because there wasn’t that, there was no bottom, there was no, um…

It’s like I think sometimes the kindest love can, I’m talking out of both sides of my mouth, I’m aware of that. But- … the kindest love can be like, “You’re gonna have to figure it out, and I believe you can figure it out.”

Christa Innis: Yeah.

Mary Van Geffen: But I don’t know if that’s the same now that wages and lodging don’t add up. So I don’t, I think, think we’re, we’ve got a lot of uncharted territory we’re headed in- Mm-hmm

where it hasn’t been like this before.

Christa Innis: Yeah. There’s definitely, definitely a shift, you know? I mean, I think, yeah, it’s like when I was going to college that was kind of like a thing you did. You just like, you went away- Right … and then you moved back home for a little bit, but I was only, I was home for maybe a year before I moved in with my now husband.

But, um, yeah. I don’t know. It’s, yeah, it’s very n- different how, how things are working or, you know.

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah.

Christa Innis: What were we talking about again? I don’t know. Um, no, that was great. I love, I love- If

Mary Van Geffen: you cut all this out I’ll be pissed.

Christa Innis: No, it’s all, it’s all staying in. I love just seeing where conversations go. No, that was, that was definitely an interesting one.

I’ve never heard, I’ve heard of people demanding to like play an instrument before or give a speech at weddings. This was the first time I’ve heard someone demanding to sing at a wedding, so very interesting. And interesting that the mother-in-law did, um, uh, predict what was gonna happen, but it was 30 years down the road and-

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah, that doesn’t count by the way.

She was wrong.

Wedding Confessions & Final Words of Wisdom 

Christa Innis: Yes. Okay. Yeah. All right. I always like to end these with some confessions that people send me. Um, okay. A moment you felt overwhelmed at your own wedding or someone else’s. Let’s see. This says, “To be honest, just walking into a room full of people staring,” like we were kind of just talking about.

Um, “When guests kept asking me different questions.” I don’t know what that would mean. Maybe during, like, wedding planning or something.

Mary Van Geffen: Oh, no, I hate that when people are like, “Oh, where should I put this?” Or, like, I can’t even handle that. I’m having a dinner party and there’s, like, six guests and someone’s like, “Oh, I brought this thing,” and it, like, has several steps.

I’m like, “No, girl, I did, I did not prepare for that. You’re on your own. I hope you can find something to put that in.”

Christa Innis: Best of luck to you.

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah.

Christa Innis: Yeah. I remember just being very, like, unbothered on my wedding day. Like, I was like-

Mary Van Geffen: Wow …

Christa Innis: please don’t… Like, I think I was just like, I need to, like, make my rounds as quickly as I can.

I had only one person luckily bring up grandkids and I was like, “Okay, I’m out. I gotta go.” Like, why are we bringing up grandkids on a wedding day?

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah, just be here on this day, for goodness sakes. Yes.

Christa Innis: Like, “Oh, how, we have grandkids soon?” I’m like, “Okay.” Uh-

Mary Van Geffen: I think there’s so many things that people say that are just what people say.

Like, they, they don’t know what to say, so they’re like, “Oh, this is the thing I ask about next.” This is the

Christa Innis: thing I say. Yeah.

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah.

Christa Innis: Yes. It’s the same with, like, um, when you like… I’ve noticed this now, like, I, I have one daughter, but, like, when I see someone else with their baby they’ll be like, “Oh, do you have baby fever?

You gonna have another one?” And I’m like-

Mary Van Geffen: Yeah …

Christa Innis: uh, no. I don’t know.

Mary Van Geffen: Also, my fertility is none of your business. Yeah. Yeah, there’s just a lot of things that are left over, like nice-isms that aren’t that nice. Like, “Oh, you got a handful there,” or, um- L- y- like you said, the terrible twos. There’s just these phrases that I think we need to interrogate a little bit and, and wonder why we say them, and just

But it, I think it does help for people to have scripts. Like, if you go to someone’s wedding, what are some things that would be appropriate to say to the bride when you’re not really sure what to say? Mm-hmm. Like, maybe like, “Oh, there was so much love in that service,” or- Mm-hmm … “I am so honored to be here, a part of this huge day,” or, “I have

I can see that you guys treat each other so well. You’re gonna have such a beautiful marriage.” Like, get … Maybe prepare your crap ahead of time so you- Yeah … don’t say something so dumb.

Christa Innis: I love that. Yes. Um, this says, um, “When everyone needed something from me at once,” and that’s why you hire a day coordinator or designate one of your bridal party as that, your point of contact, because no one should be bothering the bride or groom on their wedding day.

Mary Van Geffen: There is a lot of power in telling a friend, “Hey, would you be the person that does this or is your…” First off, it makes introverts or people who don’t know anyone feel like they have a, a real reason and a, and a, and a sort of a position of influence, and that feels good. Mm-hmm. And just t- having a little thing, like I’ve, I’ve had events where I’m like, “Could you be the person in charge of a drink?

I don’t care what the drink is, and … But I’m doing all this other stuff. Would you bring a drink?” And then they bring, like, and it’s just amazing. Or, “Would you be the person that notices when the charcuterie goes low?” Like, I think people really like to have- Mm-hmm … that, um, ask, and it takes it off your shoulders.

Christa Innis: Yes. When I’m at a party and I don’t know anybody, I love a good task. Give me a task. I will take … I … You want me to watch the dessert table and refill it? I will make sure there’s no empty spot. Like, give me a task, please. Okay. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Um, and just let me know, like, where anyone can find your book, anything fun you’re working on.

Mary Van Geffen: You … The best way to kinda work with me is to try a month of Moms A Spicy Ones Academy, where we, uh, get together three times a month if you want. It’s kinda like having dark chocolate in your bra drawer. There’s a private Instagram, uh, feed. It’s there when you need it, but it’s not something you have to do, and then all these classes.

I’ve got a class called Getting Calm, Kind Class, Firm Class, and then the Deep Work curriculum that, um, is really powerful for figuring out the kind of mom you wanna be. So that’s the best way to work with me, and then of course on Instagram I’m constantly putting dumb, uh, posts out every day.

Christa Innis: Awesome.

Well, thank you so much, and it was great having you on.

Mary Van Geffen: Oh, I loved being here. Bye, everybody.